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[01:00] [der_Tommi] OK, hard to help there, as I only know thieflings from one brief encounter from that one time I made the mistake of joining a D&D campaign.
[01:01] [der_Tommi] I guess I would generally look at the stereotype and ask: why does this stereotype exist from an in-game point of view (as in, what in that particular world makes thieflings into carefree rogues) and then tweak the stereotype with subtle variations that challenge but don't break the general pattern.
[01:04] [der_Tommi] Also I'd ask myself why I've decided to play a thiefling before I have a character concept in mind. :)
[01:05] [der_Tommi] Or are you the GM and you have some plot reason to have a thiefling in it?
[01:07] [Wheri] Well, the DM has one season of gaming under his belt, and that's mine. He's yet to announce a campaign premise.
[01:08] [Wheri] I'm doing the tiefling thing as a challenge to myself, and whatever part of the roleplaying crowd at large I can reach, to see if the race really is that shallow.
[01:08] [der_Tommi] OK, that sentence made me just more confused.
[01:08] [der_Tommi] (The first one.)
[01:09] [der_Tommi] So why *are* thieflings (from in-world point-of-view) carefree rogues?
[01:10] [Wheri] "And that concludes the first season of our campaign. Alright, fuck that, I'm done, whichever one of you wants to DM next, go ahead. You volunteer, I assume?" - that's me, at the end of last session.
[01:11] [Wheri] Right now, there's no setting to go off. Just the PHB at large and what little experience we got from the campaign I DM'd. Hopefully he won't try to run his in the same world, of course.
[01:15] [der_Tommi] Well, it's hard to comment then, not knowing what the PHB says about thieflings. But it sounds like you get to invent stuff within some kind of a basic premise of what a thiefling is.
[01:15] [Wheri] Exactly. And the premise in question seems paper-thin.
[01:16] [der_Tommi] OK, I'll try to google said premise.
[01:16] [der_Tommi] Does this sum it up? https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Tiefling#content
[01:17] [Wheri] Mechanically, yes. Thematically, you can probably infer they're devil people.
[01:17] [der_Tommi] And devils are creatures of evil (of all three varieties) in these worlds?
[01:18] [Wheri] Fair assumption. Unless the DM goes full anime with "but what if the demons are the good guys?", but he probably won't.
[01:21] [der_Tommi] How about tis description: https://www.dndbeyond.com/characters/races/tiefling
[01:23] [der_Tommi] No idea how canon that site is.
[01:23] [Wheri] Looks word-for-word from the PHB.
[01:27] [der_Tommi] OK, doesn't seem to really explain what that devil bloodline actually does to them. So I guess it could range between "just another outcast race (racism is bad, remember)", "tormented by the devil within me", and "deliciously evil".
[01:28] [Wheri] Exactly. And those three stereotypes are what I'm trying to get away from.
[01:29] [der_Tommi] Well, each of them can be varied once you've decided which of them actually applies to this version of thieflings..
[01:29] [der_Tommi] Or your character, if you don't want to define the whole race.
[01:30] [der_Tommi] For deliciously evil, I'd probably pick some not-quite-standard manner of being evil.
[01:30] [Wheri] All three of those are terribly cliche. I want neither.
[01:30] [der_Tommi] Then I'd suggest not playing a thiefling, unless I'm missing something else that's interesting about them in particular.
[01:31] [Wheri] Exactly. That's the point I'm trying to make in going beyond the stereotypes.
[01:32] [der_Tommi] No, embrace the stereotypes and enrich them with subtlety. :)
[01:32] [Wheri] Would you be suggesting the same if I wanted to play an elf or a dwarf?
[01:33] [der_Tommi] For the tormented one, I might create a character that's not defined simply by their conflict with the devil. Give them internal conflicts that are independent of that inner devil, but give the inner devil an angle to those conflicts that they might exploit. Or maybe your character is a terrible person independently from their demon somehow.
[01:33] [der_Tommi] Yes, I would suggest the same for those races.
[01:36] [Wheri] Fair enough. My problem is, I think elf and dwarf (for instance) stereotypes are much broader than what's presented for tieflings. "Is actually a terrible person regardless of ancestry" is a nice twist, but it's still playing a terrible person, which may not mesh well with 5e's tone, which is basically superheroes in a fantasy setting.
[01:36] [der_Tommi] Well, I guess you could also go for the "different thiefling" stereotype. :) That can also be done well with subtlety, like Warric in DA2 / DA:I was done. In that case by giving him characteristics that are independent of him being the "different dwarf" while keeping some essense of his dwarfness in the mix.
[01:36] [Wheri] I haven't played Dragon Age, so I can't comment here.
[01:38] [der_Tommi] Well, he's basically a person who happens to be a dwarf and often comments derisively on dwarf culture and customs.
[01:39] [Wheri] I once played a second generation dwarf immigrant. He basically behaved like a human, and felt like an older man at what's supposed to be just barely adulthood for dwarves. Also, drank a lot, becuse he's a dwarf! Does that count?
[01:40] [der_Tommi] That sounds like it would count.
[01:41] [der_Tommi] But you're right that elves and dwarves are often treated as "almost human" with little in their very nature that would make them behave in a particular way. Which is, in my opinion, a problem, as it defeats the purpose of having different races in the first place.
[01:42] [der_Tommi] (But like I said, within that problematic framework, it's still possible to create good characters like Warric.)
[01:42] [der_Tommi] (But he's pretty much just a good character - being such an unusual dwarf is just a little extra thing on it.)
[01:43] [Wheri] Also true, which is why I generally dislike the whole one million races approach D&D has. Tieflings are essentially where it breaks through for me, since there's so little opportunity to step away from the stereotype.
[01:46] [Wheri] For what it's worth, when I tried to go deeper into creating my own setting, dwarves were literally made of stone, and elves were literally trees. But then it wasn't really D&D anymore, so I stopped.
[01:46] [der_Tommi] I guess you could always mix it up by having that tiefling be grown up in unusual circumstances. Like adopted by aristocracy instead of growing up in the slums or something. (And then twist the "different tiefling" around and have the tiefling nature color all his aristocratic ventures in interesting ways.)
[01:47] [der_Tommi] Why would you stop if you were getting away from D&D? :)
[01:48] [der_Tommi] And I think you may have just described Glorantha. :) (Though not sure what dwarves are made of there.)
[01:49] [der_Tommi] (Oh yeah, I think they're made of clay, stones, or metal. But they're still flesh and bones, that's just their origin.)
[01:50] [Wheri] Because at that point I'd have to build my own system, or at least adapt a generic one, and I don't think I had enough material for that.
[01:51] [der_Tommi] That suggestion is still "different tiefling", though. I'm a little low on ideas on "just another outcast race"..
[01:52] [Wheri] Well, mine were still flesh and bone, but ate rocks, and eventually turned more and more to stone as they aged. Dwarven statues may well have been their actual ancestors.
[01:52] [der_Tommi] Ah. Gloranthan elves turn into trees when they age. :)
[01:53] [der_Tommi] That does sound like a fun world you've built, though.
[01:53] [Wheri] Interesting similarities! Mine started as trees, with the few playable ones being "emissaries", free to move away from their grove, but also not enjoying the benefits of the grove's sort-of hivemind.
[01:58] [der_Tommi] For someone fighting their inner demon, maybe look for less than stereotypically valiant ways to do so. Like maybe they play violent video games to temporarily sate their dark desires but it takes more and more every time. :) Or maybe you try to pass the routine goblin slaughter off as evil to satisfy the devil. Or maybe you have weird internal ethical debates about the nature of evil, trying to convince
[01:58] [der_Tommi] yourself that what you're doing is, in fact, evil, while satisfying your filthy good human tendencies (if we assume that devils, by nature, consider being evil a desirable state).
[01:59] [Wheri] Something as basic as trying to do perfect, but never satisfied at doing just good enough?
[02:00] [der_Tommi] (Like a really twisted version of the Finnish children's character Rölli the Troll, who strives to be bad but his good impulses keep getting in the way... :) )
[02:00] [der_Tommi] Sorry, was that a response to something I said?
[02:01] [Wheri] In a general sense.
[02:01] [der_Tommi] Sorry, I don't see the line of thought.
[02:02] [der_Tommi] Trying to do a perfect what?
[02:02] [Wheri] Well, you said he was looking for a vent for his innate evilness. I interpreted it as striving to be good, but never achieving satisfaction in it.
[02:03] [der_Tommi] Still missing the thread between those two thoughts.
[02:04] [der_Tommi] Never achieving it in the sense that you need to do that inner-devil-feeding, sure, I guess.
[02:04] [Wheri] In the sense that he's been raised and taught good, but it's still going against his nature.
[02:06] [der_Tommi] Though that inspired another idea: What if you're simply incapable of deriving pleasure from good deeds? So any goodness will either have to be calculating or based on purely ethical reasoning. Meaning you have to be a lot more dedicated to keep it up than the average person, it you might even get bitter about those warm and fuzzy feelings you never get to share.
[02:06] [Wheri] That's what I meant!
[02:06] [der_Tommi] Yes, I guess we had a similar thought. It's not quite my first idea, though.
[02:07] [der_Tommi] My first idea allows good and evil tendencies to exist in you, and be satisfied independently from each other.
[02:07] [der_Tommi] But satisfying the evil tendencies through non-evil means is a bottomless hole.
[02:07] [Wheri] I think I'm starting to like this one. "Okay, okay, I saved you. You're welcome. Now sod off and bring me a drink, will ya".
[02:08] [der_Tommi] :)
[02:08] [Wheri] ...too Slav?
[02:08] [der_Tommi] And then you remember that being rude is a slippery slope to evil..
[02:09] [Wheri] Not really rude, just dismissive.
[02:09] [der_Tommi] Still evil. The slope is quite slippery. You can hear the devil laughing at the back of your head as you see the look in the maid's eyes...
[02:10] [Wheri] That's actually a nice concept, but it relies on another PC being a goody two-shoes. Thanks, I'll see what the others bring to the table!
[02:11] [der_Tommi] Happy to be of help! :)
[02:14] [der_Tommi] Don't forget to also add something that's orthogonal to the whole "evil nature" thing.
[02:15] [Wheri] Wouldn't the race just be irrelevant at that point?
[02:15] [der_Tommi] ?
[02:16] [der_Tommi] When adding the orthogonal thing? Sure.
[02:16] [der_Tommi] In the sense that that thing is orthogonal to the race.
[02:16] [der_Tommi] And the same thing could be used with a character of a different race.
[02:17] [der_Tommi] But it might still end up interacing with and coloring / being colored by the race issue.
[02:17] [Wheri] At that point, I'd just be making a decent character on top of the racial template, let's call it that. It wouldn't make much difference if I was applying the same to a human, dragonborn or gnome.
[02:17] [der_Tommi] Sure. Just saying don't forget to do that. :)
[02:21] [Wheri] Well, looking forward to what the other players bring! Maybe I'll find a good jumping-off point there!
[02:22] [der_Tommi] Good luck with that!
[02:26] [Wheri] In non-RPG-related news, I bought a sink for my bathroom. Hopefully it won't be too difficult to install.
[02:28] [der_Tommi] Good luck with that!
[02:29] [Wheri] Hey, I've changed faucets and traps before. At this point, it's just adding the actual sink to the process, which is the biggest dumbest part of it all!
[02:30] [Wheri] And, once I'm done, I'll be able to shave properly, at last!
[02:55] [der_Tommi] One more idea before bed: Perhaps there's no inner devil at all but the tieflings have, for centuries, been using the myth of one as an excluse to revel in their perfectly human evil tendencies. They've created an entire culture around elevating evil into some kind of a virtue (because it's "natural" or "divinely" inspired). Or perhaps this is what your character believes and it's ambiguous whether it's
[02:55] [der_Tommi] the truth or not.
[02:56] [der_Tommi] Now I have a vague feeling that this is, too, some level of cliche..
[02:56] [Wheri] Heh heh, that's pretty clever, but I don't want to burden our first-time DM with a bad guy PC.
[03:00] [der_Tommi] That's why I suggested your character might be the odd one out who believes this to be the case and thus can function as a hero. But this would give a new angle to the good old discrimination story.
[03:01] [Darkhawk] Or, you could just play the stereotype because the rest of your friends are only interested in mechanically rolling dice and powergaming? ;)
[03:02] [Darkhawk] As in give up, go with the flow. And when you die, reroll with the identical twin brother of your char.
[03:02] [Darkhawk] (I really do hope you have a better group than that, one interested in RP ;))
[03:05] [Wheri] Probably light RP. The DM is very much mechanically focused, but he's getting into it.
[03:08] [Darkhawk] yeah ok, maybe you can inspire/brainwash them.
[03:09] [Darkhawk] An now I'm off to bed, kitchen work resuming in a few hours
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[08:08] [Darkhawk] mor...ning
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[09:59] [Tarragon] Hello
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[10:04] [Darkhawk] Hey Tarra
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[14:36] [Cyrilion] Afternoon
[14:37] [Darkhawk] afternoon Cyrilion
[16:40] [Tarragon] Hello
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[19:00] [Tarragon] Why is it always so much harder in summer not to think?
[19:02] [Darkhawk] I'd say it's the opposite for me because it's too hot
[19:03] [Darkhawk] But if that was meant in an existential/depressive way.. Dunno', what are you thinking about?
[19:04] [Tarragon] Circular thoughts, compulsive stuff left from the vestiges of OCD that can never be entirely eliminated.
[19:06] [Darkhawk] Yeah, usually I counsel that you can't get totally rid of all that, so you have to endure/handle it in the best possible way. Whatever that is... Generally speaking. Make your peace with it never going away. Very easy to say.
[19:06] [Tarragon] Already done! :D
[19:06] [Tarragon] But that doesn't mean I can't whinge about it.
[19:07] [Darkhawk] Naturally not, gotta' milk it for what it's worth ;)
[19:07] [Darkhawk] But I'll be sending a bill then.
[19:07] [Darkhawk] Just for the first half hour started, to be nice
[19:08] [Tarragon] I'm so awesome I figured that cap out all on my own, likely took me 3 times as long as with proper help, but muddling along on your own and succeeding has its advantages when you're a severely antisocial semi-hermit.
[19:08] [Tarragon] crap*
[19:10] [Darkhawk] Yeah, as long as you succeed rather well maybe it's even better doing it like that. At least I've seen many who go to therapy constantly and really learn to navelgaze and every week say they've changed and had some new insight about themselves, while not changing at all and not remembering those insights. But, I guess there're good therapists as well. Met one, once.
[19:10] [Darkhawk] I think.
[19:11] [Tarragon] Oh yeah, and vomit all that therapy-speak and buzzwords.
[19:11] [Tarragon] I know some people like that too.
[19:12] [Darkhawk] It can be rather draining being polite and listening. But if you say anything against it, they get angry
[19:12] [Tarragon] I might not mind... :D
[19:12] [Darkhawk] Because they need that hope that they have changed/can change.
[19:12] [Darkhawk] 'Might not' ;)
[19:13] [Tarragon] Yeah alright, def. don't mind making people angry and alienating them and burning all those bridges.
[19:14] [Darkhawk] Yeah, I thought just like that once. Still do. If they are not right, they're not right, so away with them. But some say truth is a bit more nuanced. Weird, I know ;)
[19:14] [Tarragon] But I have to hold out for some people like BF's sister, since otherwise it'd be all strained.
[19:14] [Tarragon] Fun: if they're like that but also sort of permanantly psychotic and vague/random and sort of scattered.
[19:14] [Tarragon] permanently*
[19:15] [Darkhawk] yes, that's the worst. For some at least. To have to pretend when you hate to pretend. Normal people are 'good' at it, do it all the time. Can't stand it myself. But also need to examine whether they are the unreasonable ones, or it is me. In some regards. At least, on paper.
[19:15] [Darkhawk] Sounds like someone to not see too often.
[19:16] [Tarragon] Birthdays and such. She's actually kind of fun when she's not on a therapy/self-help/religion rant.
[19:16] [Tarragon] No filters.
[19:17] [Tarragon] I always wonder why they ban sex but not religious propaganda in psych wards.
[19:19] [Darkhawk] Good question actually. Not sure they don't ban religious propaganda here, depending on how bad it is.
[19:20] [Tarragon] When BF was there for a few weeks with that psychosis, he also briefly found religion. It ended when the psychosis did, but some people never really get out of that again. There were like pamphelts and bibles left by other residents all over that place.
[19:20] [Tarragon] pamphlets*
[19:20] [Darkhawk] I've had sex in a psych ward though, because of the ban, I mean, everyone does it if they can. That and drugs ;) Ehr, I was a visitor, not an inmate!
[19:20] [Tarragon] I rather pointedly did not have sex on the psych ward as a visitor! He wasn't exactly appealing in that state.
[19:24] [Darkhawk] Yeah, some states are probably worse than others, I'd agree!
[19:25] [Tarragon] Drugs are a given in the Netherlands, including closed wards.
[19:25] [Darkhawk] Didn't see any religious stuff when I've visited. Thought they were being careful with that, but maybe some organisation in the netherlands are more into doing that.
[19:26] [Tarragon] Nah, I think they just haven't thought it through.
[19:26] [Darkhawk] Because yes, they'd often be in a susceptible state, looking for some truth that can make them feel better. Come to think of it, makes perfect sense to spread religion amongst the vulnerable. Totally ethically sound as always.
[19:27] [Darkhawk] Good thing your BF managed to loose it again
[19:28] [Tarragon] I found religion to be the most harmful thing about psych wards next to caregiver superiority and ignorance, and still too quick application of outdated methods like drugging and isolation when met with even slightly aggressive non-compliance. But they did not otherwise force meds on people so, small steps forward. Even if that means some people never leave or never reach any kind of clarity
[19:28] [Tarragon] again.
[19:29] [Darkhawk] It's better than it was, but it's also been better. Depends on resources a lot, at least here. If the employees are stressed, you get worse treatment, shorter tempers.
[19:30] [Darkhawk] Also, 'naturally', they've focused more on treatment in their own homes, same for the elderly. Because that's cheaper. And closed down space for those who really need to be in a ward.
[19:33] [Tarragon] They'll admit people here who need it, but unless it's a huge crisis, there's a maximum to the stay. That's more even than people need in ideal scenarios like BF's, with family support, people who visit, and a willingness to take meds because he's just a very reasoning-oriented person even in a deeply psychotic state, and if enough people he values give a few arguments for trying meds and assure
[19:33] [Tarragon] him they really do think there might be something a bit wrong with him right now, he will take them. But a lot of people's scenarios and not ideal.
[19:34] [Tarragon] Saw a lot of people who didn't have anyone visiting, or rarely, and people whose visitors were doing more harm than good with their reactions.
[19:35] [Tarragon] They have crisis teams for people who are already in the system and who think things might be going wrong but not so wrong yet that it can't be stopped at home.
[19:54] [Darkhawk] Yes, it's the same here. And it's tough both being a patient and being an overworked care-taker.
[19:54] [Darkhawk] But the rich/powerful people's kids also get mentally ill, so there's a movement from the elite to improve funding.
[19:58] [Tarragon] Yeah, the silver lining. Disability and illness of any kind happens to everyone.
[20:04] [Darkhawk] And in countries where we do have decent public healthcare, you need to cater equally to everyone. For now.
[20:05] [Tarragon] Meh, rich people always already have the option to buy private care, don't know why they need to cut into the rest of people
[20:05] [Tarragon] 's healthcare.
[20:05] [Tarragon] I know if I was rich I'd be buying lots of stuff I'd have to jump through hoops for now.
[20:12] [Tarragon] Being no-longer-poor though, BF says we can afford another week's holiday this year!
[20:13] [Tarragon] And should take it outside of the general holidays, because it's cheaper and this is the last year that we can for now, because starting age 5 Ian won't be allowed not to be in school for non-illness-related reasons up to age 16.
[20:18] [Darkhawk] Yeah, but the mental health system in Denmark is more or less only public. Sure you could hire some specific therapists for your kid, but there's no private ward to get into at least.
[20:19] [Darkhawk] And great Tarra, vacations are super important. We only have money for one a year. Cheaply.. When my gf pays most..
[20:20] [Darkhawk] I mean, for you it's fine the man earns the most, but what's my excuse? I'm feeling castrated!
[20:20] [Darkhawk] So now I have to be bitter and break up because of it. And she has to cheat on me until I do :(
[20:34] [Tarragon] Lol, you have no idea of the irony.
[20:55] [Darkhawk] I'm not sure I don't!
[20:55] [Darkhawk] Well, unless it's some irony inherent to your life, hehe
[20:55] [Darkhawk] or.. 'heh... heh' ;)
[20:57] [Tarragon] Mmhm, feeling pretty castrated as well :D
[20:58] [Darkhawk] Well, for gender equality, I guess that's good then. To say something positive.
[20:59] [Tarragon] Heeh.
[20:59] [Darkhawk] And otherwise ehr, I hope the similarities to my stereotypical joking stops there ;)
[20:59] [Darkhawk] Eehh heeeh
[20:59] [Tarragon] Well, I can go holiday shopping tonight at least. One of my favourite things, for some weird reason.
[21:00] [Darkhawk] Some special day for that now?
[21:02] [Tarragon] No, BF just decided yesterday that we should have one more holiday this year.
[21:02] [Tarragon] I'm always for more holidays :D He has a better oversight of financiel stuff though (thanks, dyscalculia).
[21:02] [Tarragon] e=a
[21:04] [Darkhawk] yeah, but holiday shopping, tonight? Oh.. you mean.. On the internet.. Right.. That's a new thing.. Shopping on the internet... I get it.. IQ 148.
[21:04] [Darkhawk] Or 136, depending on the test, but 148 sounded better.
[21:05] [Tarragon] Uh, been doing that since... in my teens. Just, before you could order a brochure through their websites, now they just put everything online.
[21:06] [Darkhawk] Don't even remember the first place I bought something.. But might well have been amazon
[21:06] [Tarragon] Mine has ranged from 160 to 80, on the same test (in the same week even, with 160 coming first, 80 on the second try).
[21:06] [Tarragon] Hmm, prolly the first time I actually bought something entirely online was for some MMO.
[21:06] [Tarragon] Before then they just gave payment info and you had to wire it.
[21:07] [Tarragon] Or enter credit card details., which would also be online, but not quite the same.
[21:10] [Tarragon] Then it was probably amazon here as well.
[21:10] [Tarragon] I got a credit card originally entirely so I could buy books on amazon.
[21:28] [Tarragon] Eh, time for making Ian's lunch, and breakfast, and fruit snack, and drinks. Night everyone.
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