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[00:04] [Darkhawk] Huh no, I missed that, thought it'd take longer. Maybe I'll watch it with my girlfriend wednesday then, thanks for the tip
[00:05] [Darkhawk] And yeah, I think you'd like Tyranny. Within reason of course, it's not Planescape: Torment ;)
[00:18] [der_Tommi] Hmm. I should also give Planescape: Torment another chance one day...
[00:30] [der_Tommi] Well, the character creation looks nice in Tyranny. But the gameplay looks like standard old school combat RPG.
[00:31] [Wheri] Don't you play as a general of some kind in it?
[00:31] [Darkhawk] Judge actually
[00:31] [der_Tommi] I don't know. The first minutes look like regular party based stuff.
[00:31] [Wheri] Ah, so position of authority, but non-combatant.
[00:32] [der_Tommi] No, I'm pretty sure it's one of those fighting judges.
[00:32] [Darkhawk] Yeah, gameplay is quite Baldur's Gate. With some notable exceptions gamemechanic wise that you first learn to appreciate later, like the spellmechanics.
[00:32] [Darkhawk] Hehe yes, of course it is.. A hands-on-judge.
[00:32] [Darkhawk] Judge jury and executioner... Judge Dredd!
[00:33] [Darkhawk] But it's nice that you have legal authority as well!
[00:33] [Wheri] Yeah, I thought it cound be that kind of Judge.
[00:33] [der_Tommi] So it's just the basic "gather a party, fight enemies with a select number of that party, micromanage inventory, talk and make a choice every now and then"?
[00:33] [Darkhawk] We like that!
[00:33] [Darkhawk] It's a bit more refined though, dialogue wise. They do a few twists and do it competently. But yeah sure. Magic items, fighting, real time with pause.
[00:33] [der_Tommi] I wouldn't mind some experimentation in this genre.
[00:34] [Wheri] Like, for instance, tossing the real time combat.
[00:34] [Darkhawk] combat wise, not too much of that, except the spell system.
[00:34] [Darkhawk] Not like turn based hasn't been done ;)
[00:34] [der_Tommi] I mean, I guess they do experiment, storywise, as the backstory sounds cool (but so is the backstory of Pillars of Eternity and I still got bored with it).
[00:35] [Darkhawk] I also got bored with Pillars. It was incredibly drab and lifeless. And just uninspired text for texts sake
[00:35] [Darkhawk] Tyranny is better. They also say Pillars II is better. Dunno.
[00:36] [Darkhawk] and so much focus on combat, ughhh..
[00:36] [der_Tommi] I'd really love it if they tossed the party-based combat (turn-based or otherwise) and used some other kind of gameplay to pad the hours between the story beats.
[00:36] [der_Tommi] Tyranny has less focus on combat?
[00:36] [Darkhawk] That's the hard part. Action is easy. Also makes more sense than.. I dunno, handing the PC a Rubiks Cube to solve or something ;)
[00:37] [Wheri] I only made it to the keep. Somewhat intriguing, but the combat and its incredibly needlessly precise modifiers was just a compulsive spacebar slamming stress simulator for me.
[00:37] [Darkhawk] Yes, the combat is faster and fewer fights to get to the 'bosses' or whatever. But it still has more than you'd like.
[00:38] [der_Tommi] If it has to be action, I think I prefer the Mass Effect / the Witcher variant.
[00:38] [Darkhawk] Josh E. Sawyer has taken a lot of flak over PoE combat mechanics. He's very.. OCD about his combat mechanics and wanted every class to be equal. I wish the effort was put somewhere I'd like instead. They did that in Tyranny at least. More focus on text than combat.
[00:39] [Darkhawk] Actually 'action' wise I really do like the Infinity Engine games, so... As usual we're divided ;)
[00:39] [der_Tommi] But it could be something else too, like resource management or some kind of broader scale strategy.
[00:39] [Darkhawk] The 1st person action action just makes it so.. Ughh... Shooteresque.
[00:39] [Darkhawk] And turnbased is a bit too strategic/slow
[00:40] [Darkhawk] but still better.
[00:40] [der_Tommi] I was fine with the PoE mechanics, but the repetitive combat and constant inventory micromanagement got tiresome.
[00:40] [Wheri] Have we talked about this? I was really in two minds about virtually every mechanical choice being roughly equivalent.
[00:40] [Wheri] So... X-Com, then?
[00:40] [der_Tommi] Have we talked about this before, you mean?
[00:40] [der_Tommi] I'm sure we have.
[00:41] [Darkhawk] yeah, I like other strategy game aspect put into an RPG. Basebuilding for instance. But that's mostly just frills in those kind of games, takes a backseat to the constant fighting.
[00:41] [der_Tommi] Oh, if we've talked about PoE.
[00:41] [Wheri] Pillars' "all stats/skills are equal" design.
[00:41] [der_Tommi] Yes, because the base-building is stacked on top of the fighting as an afterthought and always has to feed back into the fighting mechanics somehow.
[00:42] [Darkhawk] Dunno if we have, but I find it's easy to make things very bland if you have a focus that everything should be equal. Everything should be different, but lead to roughly the same places maybe, if you really want to nitpick
[00:42] [Darkhawk] Yes. Not sure base building has really been at the fore, ever, but it was quite big in NWN2, although that game was otherwise very meh
[00:42] [der_Tommi] For example, DA:I has all that crafting and base-building stuff but it's pointless because all it does is affect your power in those boring fights. And you're going to win all those fights anyway, if by no other means than turning down your difficulty.
[00:42] [Darkhawk] And I liked it in BG2 as well, because it felt more personal and there were quests.
[00:43] [Darkhawk] It seems most/all games just have base building because it's something you need to have, but no one really takes it to heart and builds a game around it.
[00:43] [Darkhawk] Too bad, but I can always play.. I dunno, Evil Genius...
[00:44] [der_Tommi] As for PoE: I did like that you could create a smart fighter without necessarily shooting yourself in the foot.
[00:44] [der_Tommi] But of course, it was kind of weird.
[00:44] [Darkhawk] Sure, but.. So much fighting, and so boring. And also.. Yeah... Balance for balance's sake.
[00:45] [Darkhawk] So hippie... Like 'nothing you do is wrong, it can all work out, you're great just the way you are!' ;)
[00:45] [Wheri] Yes, pretty much. I hate the idea of gimping myself by not understanding the game's systems, especially early on, and especially in longer games. But also, it can definitely kill a lot of variety.
[00:45] [der_Tommi] Well, there's always Kind of Dragon Pass but it's not really quite in this genre of course. No big overarching storylines etc.
[00:45] [Darkhawk] But then nothing's very great... And that sounds dangerously right-wing. Ew.
[00:46] [Darkhawk] Yeah, but I think you could do a lot without fighting for sure. You just don't.
[00:46] [der_Tommi] What's that last comment in response to?
[00:47] [Darkhawk] There're also games that incorporate a lot of fighting with very meaningful other mechanics. Like Darkest Dungeon or uhh.. Something I just forgot.
[00:47] [Darkhawk] Banner Saga
[00:47] [Darkhawk] You, if you understand it ;)
[00:47] [der_Tommi] I'm still confused. Who mentioned the Banner Saga?
[00:47] [Darkhawk] You could do a lot in games that is not about fighting but meaningful. But designers don't
[00:47] [Darkhawk] Omg, you never get my flow
[00:48] [Darkhawk] Darkest Dungeon and Banner Saga are examples of games that have very meaningful non-combat mechanics.
[00:48] [Darkhawk] While still being combat heavy. .
[00:49] [Darkhawk] Sunless Sea is actually an example of an exploration text-heavy game with very little combat, that still has a lot of content and takes forever to get through. So they're there. Just not in RPG's so much.
[00:49] [der_Tommi] Yeah, Banner Saga is nice in that regard, but your ability to solve that weird combat chess weighs much more on the scales still.
[00:49] [Darkhawk] Because RPG's = killing stuff.
[00:49] [Darkhawk] True.
[00:50] [Wheri] I didn't even try the actual Banner Saga. That multiplayer thing they released earlier put me off completely.
[00:50] [der_Tommi] I like King of Dragon Pass because you don't get to do the combat yourself so you have to excel at the other stuff to be successful at combat.
[00:50] [Darkhawk] Anyway, time for some bad series before bedtime. But if you can stomach BG mechanics and trappings, Tyranny does what it does better than most of them.
[00:50] [der_Tommi] Why, Wheri?
[00:50] [der_Tommi] OK, I'll keep that in mind.
[00:51] [Darkhawk] You should try it out Wheri, give it a chance, that multiplayer thing is completely seperate and nothing to think about. Nothing that connects to the games either.
[00:51] [der_Tommi] Unless of course, you were put off by the combat mechanics.
[00:51] [Wheri] I don't really remember now. Something weird about the combat. It wasn't bad, definitely.
[00:51] [der_Tommi] It's really weird and geometric.
[00:51] [der_Tommi] A counter-intuitive chess game.
[00:52] [Wheri] Maybe it just didn't quite click for me, because I usually like that kind of grid-based combat. Maybe I just prefer a more modern setting with guns and suppression and breach and clear.
[00:53] [der_Tommi] Sure, but there's a big difference between X-Com and The Banner Saga, even though both are grid-based.
[00:53] [der_Tommi] XCom tries to stick to what makes intuitive sense, The Banner Saga doesn't.
[00:54] [Wheri] Ah, that could be it. I am easily confused by counterintuitive things.
[00:55] [der_Tommi] You have to worry a lot about adjacency, rows and columns, etc.
[00:55] [Wheri] That does sound like chess.
[00:56] [Wheri] But more specifically, when the game's rules aren't that intuitive, or at least don't seem to make some sort of in-universe sense, they can easily take me out of the simulation part.
[00:57] [der_Tommi] Also, it's bad strategy to kill enemies when you can, because if you do, the other enemies just get their turns more often. Better leave weakened enemies around that can't do much harm.
[00:57] [Wheri] Ah, right! That was the thing!
[00:57] [der_Tommi] That's The Banner Saga, yes.
[00:58] [der_Tommi] Also, like chess, it's massively about forward-planning and predicting opponent moves, instead of suspense and surprise like XCom. Because of the nigh-deterministic rules.
[00:59] [der_Tommi] And happy to be of help with your memory. :)
[00:59] [Wheri] I'm not very good at that. It makes me feel dumb.
[01:00] [der_Tommi] I'm quite good at that but unfortunately it takes the same type of brainpower as my work as a programmer, so when I'm in the mood for that, it's usually a better idea to work.
[01:00] [Wheri] But it also looks like a much more abstract game, too. It will be interesting to compare, definitely.
[01:01] [der_Tommi] (Plus I'm only good at that if I spend minutes pondering every move, which makes the gameplay really slow.)
[01:01] [der_Tommi] Looks like?
[01:01] [Wheri] Seems like, from your descriptions and what I remember.
[01:01] [der_Tommi] Well, yes.
[01:02] [der_Tommi] Also, there are too many characters and they're pretty bland. The viking feel is well done, though.
[01:02] [Wheri] Also, I've been trying Battle Brothers again. I wonder how similar that is.
[01:03] [der_Tommi] Never heard of that.
[01:03] [der_Tommi] Looks pretty odd.
[01:04] [Wheri] It's not story-based. Grid-based tactical combat, where you run a mercenary company in a low-fantasy world.
[01:04] [Wheri] Hex-based, in fact.
[01:04] [der_Tommi] OK.
[01:06] [Wheri] Combat relies heavily on fatigue and morale. You can surround enemies to force them to flee, there's a reason to spread out damage, you can't maintain a spear wall very long, things like that.
[01:22] [der_Tommi] Well, good night now.
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[09:56] [Tarragon] Hello
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[11:49] [Darkhawk] Heya... or hey, good morning!
[11:49] [Darkhawk] Tarra, have you, perchance, ever made clotted cream?
[13:18] [Tarragon] No, but I do have a booklet about making clotted cream :D
[13:19] [Tarragon] The biggest hurdle seems to be finding milk that hasn't been treated in a factory to make it homogeneous.
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[14:18] [Cyrilion] Afternoon
[14:19] [Tarragon] Hello
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[19:22] [Darkhawk] yeah I dunno, I used what's the english term, bio cream, and it was a complete disaster.
[19:22] [Darkhawk] And it's such a simple recipe, and I'm not THAT stupid ;)
[19:22] [Darkhawk] I hope
[19:44] [Darkhawk] My scones worked out well, but I've always found scones to be a bit boring.
[19:45] [Tarragon] My scones are bloody fantastic ;D
[19:45] [Tarragon] And I have no clue what bio cream is?
[19:45] [Darkhawk] I just find that other types of ehr, thingies taste better.
[19:45] [Darkhawk] ecological?
[19:46] [Tarragon] organic.
[19:46] [Darkhawk] right, that's the English term
[19:46] [Tarragon] The english are weird
[19:46] [Tarragon] Clotted cream is the heaviest cream there is. You could find some double cream or heavy cream to substitute, but it still wouldn't be the same.
[19:48] [Tarragon] No expat stores in your rough vicinity? Online expat stores maybe? We have one at 20 minutes away, in Wassenaar. British fare mostly, then USA, then some australian and indian stuff
[19:49] [Darkhawk] Yeah, maybe, not so sure there is one in my vicinity, but I just came across some recipes that made it sound simple to do with normal cream, so I went ahead. Big mistake ;)
[19:50] [Tarragon] The % of fat in the cream for scones is fairly crucial, I've found. The texture changes significantly.
[19:51] [Tarragon] Then again, most run of the mill scones don't use any cream in the recipe. All the good ones have it though.
[19:51] [Darkhawk] Yeah, I used 38%, but the fat also solidified atop, which was also not supposed to happen.
[19:51] [Darkhawk] Not in the recipe, I mean, atop
[19:51] [Tarragon] 38% cream is... fairly heavy cream, but clotted cream is almost, wlel, all the fat in the milk :D
[19:52] [Tarragon] Well, have my secret then: 1 tbsp clotted cream through the dough.
[19:52] [Darkhawk] Yeah, and you were supposed to be able to do that slowcooking normal cream in the oven.
[19:52] [Tarragon] Huge improvemtn.
[19:52] [Darkhawk] Right, but here I was complaining about my clotted cream to be put atop the scone ;)
[19:53] [Tarragon] Yeah, you are supposed to be bale to do the same with whole milk with cream added to it, but my book said specifically not to use factory processed milk or cream even then, because the stuff they put in it to homogenise the texture makes it nearly impossible.
[19:54] [Tarragon] For that,u se heavy cream, whip it only slightly to not be completely runny, then just use that and mourn the lack of real clotted cream.
[19:54] [Tarragon] use*
[19:54] [Darkhawk] right. Or find a store that might carry it
[19:55] [Tarragon] Some people mix heavy cream nd mascarpone, but that just improves the texture while being detrimental to the taste. Looks aren't everything.
[19:55] [Darkhawk] yeah, and that's not very original British at all
[19:56] [Tarragon] Also: watch out what brand double/heavy cream you use. Elmlea, for example, is a plant-based substiture, but doesn't actually say so anywhere except in very fine print in a hard to find spot. It will not act the same in cooking, and tastes like crap no matter how much some people might yammer on about it.
[19:56] [Tarragon] substitute*
[19:57] [Darkhawk] wow, that would traumatize me, if I used that without knowing ;)
[20:13] [Tarragon] And original british is basically the highest fat content possible :P
[20:13] [Tarragon] Honey, milk, cream, meat.
[20:27] [Cyrilion] Not sure if it has been mentioned in here yet, but I'm thoroughly enjoying Kingdom Come: Deliverance
[20:31] [Cyrilion] Some railroading in the main story that can be a bit annoying. Was plagued by launch bugs by all reports, but I'm not really encountering those. Except for a few conversations where NPC doesn't regognize correct player state, but that's rare.
[20:33] [Darkhawk] Yeah, they had a patch immediately around launch that made it more stable than the review version at least. I'm waiting for them to be 'finished' with it before playing. Actually a kickstarter I backed, enough so that I have a physical copy.
[20:35] [Darkhawk] I prefer not knowing personal details about the people doing games, but I had the misfortune to get to know that the main designer/project lead is a right-wing misogynist, which annoys me, but if the game is fine, I'll manage I guess ;)
[20:37] [Cyrilion] It's a great experience, I think. As long as you don't expect to roleplay the character in a way the devs didn't intend. Accept the character and it's one of the most immersive experinces I've had in games for a long time
[20:38] [Darkhawk] ok, that sounds very good :) How far in are you hour-wise?
[20:38] [Cyrilion] Ermm...
[20:39] [Cyrilion] That may not be a good way to meassure it. Steam says 28 hours
[20:39] [Cyrilion] Had some break where it was just on pause, so... 22-24 perhaps
[20:41] [Darkhawk] And it feels like there's lots left?
[20:43] [Cyrilion] I had played 12-15 hours when I hit the opening credits
[20:43] [Cyrilion] Ok.. 8-10, perhaps
[21:04] [Darkhawk] hehe ooook ;)
[21:23] [Tarragon] Bedtime soon, night everyone.
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[21:50] [der_Tommi] Oh yeah, I tried Kingdom Come: Deliverance but got stuck with a bug where two NPCs can't get past each other so no one can open the gate for me to continue the quest.
[21:51] [der_Tommi] I figure if I can actually learn the fighting system, it should be a nice immersive experience. And without a party, so that's a bonus.
[21:52] [der_Tommi] I find it pretty nice how they're even modeling some nutritional properties of food. Like how bread gives you empty carbs while meat fills you up. :)
[21:53] [der_Tommi] And yes, the tutorial portion is preetty long.
[21:55] [der_Tommi] I also liked that one initial quest that revolved around political themes such as supporting different nobles with different agendas, ethnic tension in the village, etc. :)
[21:55] [Wheri] Isn't the combat sort of like War of the Roses? Directional swings and blocks, trying to hit joints if the enemy is armoured?
[21:55] [der_Tommi] Yes.
[21:56] [der_Tommi] I can say with certainty that I've never encountered a quest quite like that in RPGs.
[21:57] [Wheri] Sounds fun. This one's definitely on my list.
[21:57] [der_Tommi] Nice.
[21:58] [der_Tommi] The scenery is also pretty nice in a realistic way. Though somehow it looks even better in Youtube videos, presumably because they don't sit still long enough for you to notice the repetitive motions of trees etc.
[22:08] [Cyrilion] They've also made something more out of crafting. Alchemy actually feels like you're creating a potion. Sharpening a sword... you're actually doing it. Angling it right against the wetstone, running the edge along it...
[22:08] [Darkhawk] as long as it doesn't get too micromanagy with things you constantly have to redo... Or constantly visit the loo, hehe.
[22:09] [Cyrilion] Alchemy, at least, has a perk to do it automatically once you've trained enough
[22:16] [Wheri] I've seen alchemy. Can definitely get repetitive if you need potions often.
[22:17] [Cyrilion] I'd assume so. So far I haven't been able to complete one potion ;)
[22:18] [Cyrilion] The reading skill could have been implemented better, by the way. It's possible to read even if your character can't
[22:18] [Wheri] Just a basic substitution cipher?
[22:19] [Cyrilion] Letters are just scrambled, but still sticking to the words they belong
[22:20] [Cyrilion] oS mtohgni ikle hits
[22:20] [Cyrilion] oS mtohsgni ikle hits
[22:20] [Wheri] Ah, so the old "you can raed fine if the frsit and lsat ltrrets are crocert" trick?
[22:20] [Cyrilion] First and last letters aren't in the right place, but yes
[22:21] [Cyrilion] ... Didn't even get the second one right
[22:21] [Cyrilion] oS mteohsgni ikle hits
[22:28] [der_Tommi] I can't figure out what mteohsgni is.
[22:29] [der_Tommi] Oh, "something"
[22:29] [der_Tommi] That's not something that jumps up immediately, but yeah, that seems like a poor way to do it.
[22:30] [der_Tommi] Especially with so many short words.
[22:32] [Cyrilion] Exactly. There are words that are almost impossible to decipher on their own, but in context, it's not that tricky to read
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