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[00:00] [Darkhawk] Did you watch ST:Discovery Tommi?
[00:00] [der_Tommi] But they pretty much drop all the Wonder Boy stuff by S3, have him sit at the helm and have a teenager storyline here and there.
[00:00] [der_Tommi] Yes, I did watch Discovery.
[00:00] [der_Tommi] Did you?
[00:00] [Darkhawk] ok, so I guess no one will get spoiled
[00:00] [Darkhawk] Yeah
[00:01] [der_Tommi] I found it had all the flaws of Start Trek and none of the good sides. (Though it did have some good sides of other, more modern, shows.)
[00:01] [Darkhawk] The other day. Not exactly happy, but made me want to compare it to older series
[00:01] [Darkhawk] Something it was heavy handed with, was 'talking to the viewer', i.e. the characters explaining basic stuff for the benefit of the viewer, breaking immersion.
[00:01] [Darkhawk] Most series do that, but Discovery did it a lot
[00:02] [der_Tommi] OK, I guess it did.
[00:02] [Wheri] The first half felt like they were chasing that Game of Thrones dragon. And basically whenever something Trek showed up, they just flipped the audience up and blew it up.
[00:02] [der_Tommi] TNG seems to be mostly happy to just spout nonsense technobabble instead.
[00:02] [Darkhawk] Like, explaining that physics and biology are the same at the quantum level... To some IQ 150 girl with several degrees in those fields..
[00:02] [der_Tommi] I also *hate* *hate* *hate* Star Trek mirror universes...
[00:04] [Wheri] Also felt like they made the main character just *better*. She's the smartest, and the prettiest, and like Spock, only better.
[00:04] [Darkhawk] And lots more fighting and not that much focus on altruism and solving things without action scenes. I.e like the new ST movies or any other american thing right now.
[00:04] [Darkhawk] Some things do get better near the end though, story wise, but you gave uup halfway I guess Wheri. Still, it doesn't get 'good' magically, just better
[00:04] [der_Tommi] It basically had the same flimsy, barely-held-together long-arc storytelling as most Trek shows, but indeed, none of the ponderous positivity.
[00:05] [der_Tommi] It does get more intense, especially if you like mirror universe nonsense.
[00:06] [Wheri] Maybe I'll finish it some day when I have nothing better to watch. Or get someone to point and laugh at it with.
[00:06] [Wheri] Meanwhile, new sci-fi you may or may not like: Annihilation. I didn't, but recommend it, anyway.
[00:07] [der_Tommi] Also, not at all a fan of the twist with the captain.
[00:07] [Darkhawk] I guess in the old series, which I can't remember exactly, they probably also acted incredibly stupid, but I can't really abide that anymore.. Like in Doscovery.. Let's have the captain and the second in command beam aboard the Klingon warship ALONE to kidnap their leader.. No need to send any boarding party, the two most important people we can't afford to loose can do it! Oh whoops, the captain died. Bummer.
[00:07] [Darkhawk] Yeah, I heard about Annihilation, haven't checked it yet
[00:08] [der_Tommi] In TNG it's a special occasion to see any "redshirts" on an away mission. Being in security must be a pretty sweet gig, as your boss does all the dangerous stuff alone.
[00:08] [Wheri] And that war crime in the pilot.
[00:08] [Darkhawk] Which captain, the male or the female? Because I 'liked' the male twist, because that was one of the things needed to make the show more trekky again. You know, more explory and altruistic
[00:08] [der_Tommi] The male.
[00:09] [Darkhawk] Uh huh
[00:09] [der_Tommi] Well, if you were going to go dark, then just go legitimately dark..
[00:10] [Darkhawk] That twist tried to redeem what Star Trek should be about, while having an excuse for more fighting before it. Kinda' cheap way of pandering to action people, but still better than not having an explanation for some of the stuff
[00:10] [Darkhawk] But yeah, could have gone dark in other ways. Still, there was foreshadowing so it didn't come as a surprise as such
[00:11] [der_Tommi] Because you think having a single not-entirely-goldhearted captain in Starfleet history was too much to swallow?
[00:11] [Wheri] Let me guess: somewhere before the show, the captain shaved his beard off?
[00:11] [der_Tommi] ?
[00:11] [Darkhawk] Actually I think it was more primitive that the entire leadership of Starfleet weren't very goldhearted at the end
[00:12] [der_Tommi] True. But it was only possible because they were manipulated by THE EVIL MIRROR UNIVERSE PERSON!!
[00:12] [Darkhawk] But I'm fine with not-goldhearted people and struggles, as long as it makes sense. Too much 'our characters need to do stupid things so we can have a cool story twist' in Discovery.
[00:13] [der_Tommi] Did I mention how much I hate this Donald Duck level mirror universe crap Trek likes to pull at least once per series?
[00:13] [Darkhawk] Yes, you don't like mirror universe's, check. To be fair, it's rather primitive as well. 'ooooh, we're all soooo evil'.
[00:13] [Wheri] Have there ever been Mirror Universe Klingons?
[00:13] [der_Tommi] There were in this one.
[00:13] [Wheri] D'oh.
[00:13] [der_Tommi] Guess if they're good or bad?
[00:14] [Wheri] They're also bad!
[00:14] [Darkhawk] hehe
[00:14] [der_Tommi] Well, OK, Vulcans seem to somehow be good in both universes.
[00:14] [Darkhawk] Also, I didn't like the 4 times in the season that someone said 'oh god' ;) And the one time we had an agnostic moment.
[00:15] [der_Tommi] Because they tried to make it more subtle and complex, which only underlines how ridiculous the whole concept is in the first place.
[00:15] [Darkhawk] But at least there wasn't any overt religion. But come on, they wouldn't say oh god anymore. Mostly americans in our time do that.
[00:15] [Wheri] I liked a suggestion I heard: the show took place in the Mirror Universe, and at the mid-season break they fell out into the main one or whatever they call it.
[00:16] [der_Tommi] Well, I do that, but that's probably just because I've learned it from Americans. My German friends do that a lot too, though.
[00:16] [Darkhawk] Mein Gott.. Yeah, true I guess
[00:16] [Darkhawk] Still, without religion, it should diminish.
[00:17] [der_Tommi] Sure.
[00:17] [Darkhawk] although it's just a leftover phrase for most now. But I don't recall this in TNG, because Roddenberry made a big deal out of the atheism
[00:17] [Wheri] I'm not so sure. It's an established phrase most just repeat because they're used to it.
[00:17] [der_Tommi] Oh, and I also wasn't a big fan of the fungal crap. Too many weird magic things in the universe already.
[00:17] [Darkhawk] and science, and humanism. But I don't think such a clean show is in the cards these days. Maybe in some decades when culture has changed a bit again.
[00:18] [der_Tommi] I'm fairly sure Geordi sometimes says "damn".
[00:18] [Darkhawk] but no one in Scandinavia uses that phrase. It's a cultural/Christian thing. If everyone were committed atheists, it might die out.
[00:19] [Darkhawk] Heh yes.
[00:19] [Darkhawk] We have lots of 'Christian' swear words in Denmark too at least.
[00:19] [Darkhawk] oh well, just a pet peeve of mine, the 'agnostic' moment was more annoying
[00:19] [der_Tommi] Anyway, I did like some stuff about the show. Most characters were fun enough to watch, for example.
[00:20] [der_Tommi] I've forgotten about that moment.
[00:20] [Darkhawk] Also, the token gay couple? When the thing happens, he's awfully quick to go on without any big emotion
[00:20] [der_Tommi] I liked Saru, though I was annoyed when even he turned out to have superior physical strength compared to humans. Because why the heck not?
[00:21] [Wheri] Because Spock, basically.
[00:21] [Darkhawk] When the gay scientist meets his twin, they talk about life after dead and a female God. And them not knowing what happens after death. Typical pandering to keep the possibility open.
[00:21] [der_Tommi] But Saru's basically a space antelope...
[00:21] [Darkhawk] Makes sense he can kick hard
[00:21] [Darkhawk] but doesn't make sense he doesn't crush someones ribs when he does it ;)
[00:22] [der_Tommi] Not sure what makes that couple "token" any more than the fact that most characters seemed to be checking some diversity box or another.
[00:22] [Wheri] I sort of liked him, as well. At least he had some character traits. Everyone else was either bland or annoying.
[00:22] [Wheri] Well, one character trait, but it's still "some".
[00:22] [Darkhawk] token because they're included, but they're just side characters. Like the token cheerful chubby girl, who cannot have any leading role or matter much.
[00:23] [der_Tommi] The gay engineer was, like, the third-most-central character after the captain and Michael.
[00:24] [Darkhawk] I also get annoyed at the incredibly one-sided way Romulans get depicted, and how they super stupid in general and super stupid with their logic. I mean, they're so much more advanced and insightful, but they come across as helpless and pathetic and wrong all the time
[00:24] [der_Tommi] Did you mean to say "Vulcans"?
[00:24] [Darkhawk] And Klingons are so incredibly stupid tactically too you wonder how they can wipe their asses let alone build starships ;)
[00:24] [Darkhawk] Ehrm yes
[00:24] [Darkhawk] Vulcans, check.
[00:25] [Darkhawk] but that thing with how the Vulcans are depicted is of course normal for ST. Very black/white too.
[00:26] [Darkhawk] Klingons as well. But I wonder if TNG was this stupid with their plot as well, or if it made more sense.
[00:29] [der_Tommi] Yes, I don't know how balanced the Vulcans (or Spock) are presented in TOS, but most of the time in the rest of the series they're there to show how cold emotional repression is bad.
[00:29] [der_Tommi] And that logic is illogical.
[00:30] [Darkhawk] I'm afraid that if I rewatch TNG I'll be forced to see that it's a show made for children, just like most other shows seem to be :(
[00:30] [Darkhawk] But I really liked it
[00:31] [der_Tommi] Well, if it is, it's not talking down to them, at least the better episodes.
[00:31] [Wheri] TOS didn't have that many Vulcan episodes. I only recall the "Spock in heat" one, but I still have about a season to go through.
[00:32] [der_Tommi] Sure, but it had the constant presence of Spock and his logic.
[00:32] [Darkhawk] Also, this 'emotion is the opposite of logic' and 'logic cannot explain or understand everything' is a really old, cultural trope by now, and not really truthful either, philosophically speaking. Everything's logic, some just more complex than others. But hey, that'd be too complex when we want some simple, universal themes.
[00:33] [Darkhawk] Yes, and Spock was made out to be really stupid because he was so 'logical'. Effective and efficient sure, but also.. Not so bright ;)
[00:33] [Wheri] Klingons were less "honour, honour, honourable honour", more simply warlike and aggressive. Gave me a bit of a "Space Soviets" vibe.
[00:34] [der_Tommi] To be fair, a lot of stuff is *really* *really* complex to analyze, so it might be a better to just follow your evolutionary heuristic instead. But of course, to do so then becomes logical.
[00:34] [Darkhawk] Yes, I guess that comparison has been made some times with TOS, Klingons being soviets. Dunno if that holds, at least orcs being Nazis in Tolkien doesn't hold.
[00:34] [der_Tommi] Was Spock depicted like that all the time, or just sometimes?
[00:35] [Wheri] Like a couple of episodes revolved around Starfleet and Klingons landing on the same primitive planet at the same time and trying to outpolitick each other.
[00:35] [der_Tommi] Yep, they pretty much redesigned the Klingons for TNG.
[00:36] [der_Tommi] I only know most TOS episodes from here: http://www.mezzacotta.net/planetofhats/episodes/0001.html
[00:37] [Wheri] Spock was generally fascinated by how illogical McCoy was being, and then at the fact Kirk's plan worked.
[00:37] [Wheri] Oh, this is gonna be fun. Thanks for the link!
[00:38] [der_Tommi] You're welcome. :) (The drawing gets a bit better towards the end.)
[00:38] [Wheri] I guess it's better than posing Legos.
[00:38] [der_Tommi] Ah, you knew of DMM already.
[00:38] [der_Tommi] I guess you know this too then: http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0001.html
[00:39] [der_Tommi] And the lego posing works pretty well, in my opinion.
[00:39] [Wheri] Yeah, I used to follow Irregular Webcomic for some time. Darths & Droids, too, but I guess I lost interest in webcomics in general.
[00:40] [der_Tommi] I've ready him daily since god knows how long ago.
[00:42] [Darkhawk] God
[00:49] [Wheri] Oh right. Do ships still fall out of orbit if their engines die in TNG and on?
[00:52] [der_Tommi] I'm not sure if that particular situation has come up.
[00:53] [der_Tommi] They do seem to lack basic space reasoning, though.
[00:55] [der_Tommi] Though I guess it's not impossible that they'd put their ships at a lower and slower "orbit" than what would keep them from falling, for reasons of convenience.
[00:55] [der_Tommi] And use their engines to stay up.
[00:56] [der_Tommi] Then again, they often utter the phrase "full stop" in the middle of empty space, so it's probably not so sophisticated.
[00:58] [Wheri] I don't recall that, but I can't say they never did, either. Again, not unreasonable they're using some sort of implicit reference point.
[00:58] [der_Tommi] Anyway, time to go to bed and watch another dream of endlessly solving an impossible puzzle of some kind. Because that's what I always seem to get when I have a cold.
[00:59] [Wheri] Goodnight!
[00:59] [der_Tommi] Well, it's never implied that they need to decelerate before coming to a full stop, so..
[03:13] [Darkhawk] heh. Well, I'm off
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[09:58] [Tarragon] Hello
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[21:08] [Cyrilion] Evening
[21:08] [Tarragon] Hello
[21:32] [Tarragon] Night everyone
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