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[00:08] [der_Tommi] Hello, and happy new year to you too!
[00:10] [der_Tommi] In case anyone wants to see a draft of my perfect roleplaying system: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lEk3siHL9UcjJdWqFpThBIf5tHszPobs/view?usp=sharing
[00:10] [der_Tommi] I've cherry-picked all my favourite rules from different systems and tried to make it all work together.
[00:11] [Darkhawk] SOunds like Frankensteins Monster? ;)
[00:11] [Darkhawk] Eh, not that I have read it yet!
[00:53] [der_Tommi] :)
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[03:43] [Darkhawk] Read it, bit hard at this time to write anything coherent about my impression of those rules, but overall they seem very 'artificial story'-focused. ANd as an immersionist, you know how I feel about that ;) Also yeah, very metaish rules, but that's to be expected, when you want one-size-fits-all, and that can be fine. I'd have done a completely different system myself. I have done that in the past, come to think of it. It's good
[03:43] [Darkhawk] fun, for curious minds to create such things :)
[03:43] [Darkhawk] Anyway, off to sleep
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[10:17] [Cyrilion] Morning
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[17:57] [Darkhawk] Heya
[18:05] Tarragon (Tarragon@5ED28D04.cm-7-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) joined #seed.
[18:05] [Tarragon] Hello
[18:05] [Darkhawk] Hey Tarra
[18:06] [Darkhawk] So, Olienbollen, Tarra? A pre-doughnut doughnut? We have 'ębleskiver here in Denmark, also for december only. But never tried olienbollen. I'm sure our ębleskiver are better...
[18:08] [Tarragon] Oliebollen without the first n. And we don't usually make them because I don't like fucking around with the oil on the stove. We don't have a deep fryer.
[18:08] [Darkhawk] but are they any good?
[18:08] [Darkhawk] I mean.. Balls in oil.. Calories much
[18:09] [Tarragon] They're... fried, very slightly sweet, yeast risen doughballs. Better than doughnuts, but well...
[18:09] [Tarragon] I prefer churros.
[18:09] [Darkhawk] Sounds kinda' boring. You eat them with something? Like sugar and marmelade, like we do with ębleskiver in Denmark?
[18:10] [Tarragon] They sell them with various fillings in the special stands, but those are professionals.
[18:10] [Tarragon] Powdered sugar mostly. Most people have raisins in the dough for flavour but I can't stand that. No mixing fruits and doughstuffs.
[18:11] [Darkhawk] I'll have to disagree, but right...
[18:11] [Darkhawk] You can have it your way.. For now...
[18:11] [Tarragon] It's one of the mortal sins.
[18:11] [Tarragon] Abomination.
[18:12] [Darkhawk] Nothing less
[18:12] [Darkhawk] Like pineapple on pizza
[18:12] [Tarragon] But hey, we're Dutch! We practically invented bland food?
[18:12] [Darkhawk] Nah, so did the Danes, but close enough, kitchen-wise.
[18:13] [Tarragon] They actually sort of enforced it during the industrial era by teaching it in housekeeping schools.
[18:13] [Darkhawk] yep, same here. A little salt and pepper and that's it
[18:13] [Tarragon] How to cook without any herbs, spices or salt.
[18:13] [Tarragon] What, salt?
[18:13] [Tarragon] Heathens
[18:13] [Darkhawk] hehe
[18:13] [Darkhawk] I said 'a little' but right. So we're slightly less bland
[18:14] [Darkhawk] Now of course, cooking practices are way more globalized
[18:14] [Tarragon] It was decadent even to pour the jouces from the meat over the tasteless potato+veg mash.
[18:14] [Darkhawk] Oh... That sounds bland
[18:14] [Tarragon] Yeah, and we do eat a lot of less bland stuff, but, well.... people still cook that way a lot.
[18:15] [Tarragon] With salt and pepper now.
[18:15] [Tarragon] Shocking
[18:15] [Darkhawk] And butter I'm guessing. That helps a lot with the traditional stuff as well
[18:15] [Tarragon] If they could afford it, yeah, heaps
[18:16] [Tarragon] But even so, I actually prefer my vegetables just plain boiled or steamed. Because I'm used to it. Not the potato though.
[18:17] [Darkhawk] Cooked potatoes are the definition of plain, that's the most common ingredient in Danish 'cuisine'. Traditional cuisine anyway
[18:18] [Tarragon] We often have a laugh about the idea of people opening a Dutch cuisine restaurant somewhere. They do, but then it's all spiced up and made interesting. If they only knew...
[18:18] [Darkhawk] In the same way, it would be horrible to open an authentic European Middle Ages restaurant.
[18:18] [Tarragon] It's mostly like potato+veg mash. With some sausage if you're very lucky. Steak on a sunday. Fish when people were poor.
[18:20] [Tarragon] Yeah, you have to pick and choose which kinds of cooking you represent then. If it's people's everyday food, you're going to be disappointed.
[18:21] [Darkhawk] Yep, it'll be blander than bland. And weird as well, in places.
[18:22] [Tarragon] Or sweet, because they had honey, butter and sugar, but not often savoury because salt and herbs and spices were too hard to get.
[18:23] [Tarragon] I tasted a well made heavily herbed middle ages stew once though, and that was just fine. Used sea salt.
[18:23] [Darkhawk] sure, if you search long enough, you can find something. And stews are probably the best.
[18:24] [Darkhawk] And soups the worst... Baking was also pretty bland.
[18:24] [Tarragon] You still have to search very, very hard here though, for more "outlandish" (read: outside the 3 better known spices or flavourings) tastes here even when it comes to stuff like crisps and icecream.
[18:25] [Darkhawk] Not selling your country to me...
[18:25] [Tarragon] It took well into my teens for them to add cheese as a crisps flavour, for example, and we even love cheese here.
[18:26] [Tarragon] Well, we have our good points, but mostly that's just side effects from the bad ones?
[18:26] [Tarragon] Like our famous tolerance.
[18:26] [Darkhawk] Never heard about that.. Danes are the ones famous for tolerance! Once...
[18:27] [Tarragon] We both are I think.
[18:27] [Darkhawk] .. were
[18:27] [Tarragon] Sometimes I wonder how we developed as 2 separate countries.
[18:27] [Darkhawk] Probably because you managed to throw out the vikings who conquered you once...
[18:27] [Tarragon] We even both have land mostly washed up from the sea (or drained in our case)
[18:28] [Tarragon] Yeah, but we never managed to dislodge the romans
[18:30] [Tarragon] And we only won against the french and spanish in the end because we were too annoying to keep bothering with. Like a very small dog that never stops biting your ankles so instead of squashing it, you decide to kick it out of the house.
[18:30] [Darkhawk] That still counts ;)
[18:30] [der_Tommi] Thanks for the review, Darkhawk!
[18:30] [Tarragon] Well, we did sack their ships at least.
[18:30] [Darkhawk] Yeah, not much of one. Tommi ;)
[18:30] [Tarragon] (and will never let them forget it)
[18:31] [Darkhawk] The English sacked and stole all of our ships, was a great national embarrasment, and we've never recovered since then, or won anything. Alas.
[18:31] [der_Tommi] I'd have been pretty surprised if you had liked it, given your very specific views.
[18:32] [Darkhawk] Also, it feels too gamey Tommi, just to add more constructive criticism ;) But hey, if I don't like it, and we have opposite tastes, that must mean it's great for you!
[18:32] [Tarragon] Well, the English were pretty good at sea too, so yeah if you had to lose...
[18:32] [Darkhawk] They surrounded Copenhagen so our fleet couldn't get out :(
[18:33] [Tarragon] Yeah too much sea and harbours here to do that... Sail up the Thames next time and kidnap the ruling monarch and then marry them.
[18:33] [Darkhawk] Then forced us to give them our fleet or have Copenhagen burned to the ground. Then they used OUR fleet against Napoleon.
[18:33] [der_Tommi] Well, from my viewpoint, it's a pretty "centrist" system when it comes to immersion vs narrative, and maybe slightly gamey. (Not very much fun to play to win, I'd imagine.)
[18:33] [Darkhawk] Yeah, when we were vikings, we ruled the seas and everything. Those were the days.
[18:34] [der_Tommi] Yes, you bastards took Sweden from us Fennic people...
[18:34] [Tarragon] Pretty good explorers too.
[18:34] [Darkhawk] The ability to move around your points on new stats/abilities to accomodate the 'story needs' (urgh) is super gamey...
[18:34] [Darkhawk] Explorers, traders.. Rapists.. Good times, good times.
[18:35] [Darkhawk] But at least we had our moment
[18:35] [Tarragon] Well, everyone raped enough to go permanently blind back then, if you believe the stories.
[18:35] [der_Tommi] You conflate "gamey" with "narrativistic".
[18:35] [Darkhawk] It can be both Tommi ;)
[18:36] [der_Tommi] Also, the point is to let players move points freely to match their idea of the character, so I'm not sure why that particular rule would get in the way of your immersion. (I'd expect the Fate Points and the Goal system might.)
[18:36] [Darkhawk] Yeah, it was probably so common, there weren't really words for it. So yeah. Vikings weren't even evil compared to the rest of the world.
[18:36] [Tarragon] Aside from that, the germanic and nordic people enslaved their women the least, so go us :P
[18:37] [Darkhawk] Yes, that's what they like to say at least, and in some ways that seems to be true. But still, not a totally perfect society ;)
[18:37] [Tarragon] And contrary to popular opinion, the celts were actually really bad with that, they just had a few famous queens.
[18:38] [Darkhawk] You're right Tommi, but that's assuming the players are sensible, and not powergamers ;)
[18:38] [Tarragon] Can't you be sensible AND a powergamer?
[18:38] [der_Tommi] That's why I only pick sensible players.
[18:38] [Darkhawk] In strategy games, sure you can
[18:38] [Tarragon] Like in different playthroughs,
[18:38] [Darkhawk] Powergamer is a bit derogatory. You can be sensible AND a min/maxer. I guess. I'm sensible. uh huh
[18:39] [der_Tommi] I think the usual systems hamper immersion because they rarely give many tools to make your character evolve to be *worse* at something.
[18:39] [Tarragon] I usually like to do EVERYTHING and then afterwards do it the way I'd like according to immersion and story choices and such.
[18:40] [der_Tommi] This will allow you to trade something (like "young and beautiful") to something else (like "old and wise") when the story progresses.
[18:40] [Darkhawk] I think it's too gamey a way to look at it. If circumstances randomly make you worse, you're worse, without having to artificially plug in the 'worseness' via rules.
[18:40] [Tarragon] What about old and stubbornly racist?
[18:40] [Tarragon] Seems to be more common
[18:40] [Darkhawk] I often have characters both as a player and in GM games,that are get depressed or fucked up, and they roleplay it without the need for it to be in some sort of 'system'.
[18:40] [der_Tommi] In other words, ruleless systems are good. I agree they can be fun too.
[18:41] [Darkhawk] Yeah, why 'trade' young and cool with 'old and crappy', it happens naturally. Making that into points is very gamey. for me.
[18:41] [der_Tommi] "Old and stubbornly racist" would be an Aspect, as Abilities can only be useful in this game. (Unless you play in a historical era, I guess.)
[18:41] [Darkhawk] I prefer something rules light for the combat and randomness
[18:42] [Tarragon] Old and overly trusting on one side while being entirely too rigid on the other.
[18:42] [Tarragon] Whoo aging!
[18:42] [Darkhawk] some way of resolving rnadom stuff, because I don't like that to be decided via story. But otherwise, I've had good success with everything else being without 'rules'
[18:43] [der_Tommi] So.. if you take "beautiful" as some kind of pro in some system, you'll just rather let it sit on your character sheat forever, until you're 100 years old? And either ignore it or find excuses how the beauty is in the eye of the beholder?
[18:43] [Tarragon] Or like, beautiful and utterly ass-dumb. Like, vitamic C cures cancer stupid.
[18:43] [Darkhawk] Yeah, way better not to make some 19 year old blond, muscled youth ready to take on the world ;)
[18:44] [Darkhawk] Those are great yeah. And playing racists or homophobes as well. To a degree. Can get a bit draining as well, depending on how much you put into it
[18:44] [der_Tommi] You could express any of your character concepts in this system, Tarragon. :)
[18:44] [Tarragon] Oh gods, so many of those people around me I don't think I could play one without vomiting.
[18:45] [Darkhawk] Nationalists are easier to play for me. Patriots and right-wingers based on that. Yeah, racists and homophobes, those with destructive feelings, a bit more advanced. But still, enlightening stuff, when you come to understand why they tick as they do
[18:45] [Tarragon] Like, the super succesful yuppie couple where she is a yoga instructor and they have the clingiest, whiniest kid I've ever seen because 'natural parenting.'
[18:46] [Tarragon] If any of the kids at Ian's pre-school are not vaccinated, it's that one.
[18:46] [Darkhawk] And you want to RP the kid? ;)
[18:47] [Tarragon] I just bet they claim he'highly senbsitive in a vaguely new age way, too.
[18:47] [Tarragon] he's* sensitive*
[18:47] [der_Tommi] I don't think I've ever intentionally played someone that greatly behind their times, but I like to roleplay what I consider to be the standard of the time.
[18:47] [der_Tommi] Which, of course, means in MMOs I'm the most backward of the backwards.
[18:48] [Darkhawk] Depending on the specific country, you can find lots of standards that are greatly behind other countries times.
[18:48] [der_Tommi] (Time or world, that is.)
[18:48] [der_Tommi] (Or country.)
[18:48] [Tarragon] Yeah, we went on holiday in the Czech Republic a few years back, and when we arrived and didn't have the same last name, the couple renting out the house was just SO fucking scandalised, you don't even know. We have no idea if it was just them, their age, their religion, the country, or what.
[18:49] [der_Tommi] Even the 100 years old grandmother I'm playing in Eclipse Phase is very progressive.
[18:49] [Tarragon] They tried to laugh it off.
[18:49] [Tarragon] But damn.
[18:49] [Darkhawk] Think it was them, the Czech Republic isn't THAT backwards as a whole
[18:49] [der_Tommi] How did they express their outrage?
[18:50] [Darkhawk] But homophobia, you can meet a lot of that even when you don't travel too far from your own country.
[18:50] [Tarragon] Yeah people, we're never getting married! We're SO anti-establishment!
[18:50] [Tarragon] Try transphobia.
[18:50] [Tarragon] And just look inside your own coutnry.
[18:50] [Darkhawk] Yeah, they should try having my girlfriend and me over. No same names, not living together, not having children... The scandal
[18:50] [Darkhawk] plus the open relationships and various sexual deviances.. Yeah, I win!
[18:51] [Tarragon] Well, our kid *was* an accident. Does that make it better or worse?
[18:51] [Darkhawk] After that, they'd be happy to host you
[18:51] [Darkhawk] For them, I imagine it's still better, because a kid is a kid
[18:51] [Tarragon] Didn't have him back then.
[18:51] [Darkhawk] ah.. yeah ok
[18:53] [Tarragon] But if you're shocked by sex outside of marriage, being gay or trans or poly or kinky is probably reason to kick your right back out.
[18:53] [Darkhawk] indeed
[18:53] [Darkhawk] maybe not SO much the kinky stuff as the rest
[18:54] [Darkhawk] And trans is probably the worst
[18:54] [Tarragon] In lessons learned: do not rent out a property to tourists if you have a problem with ANY of their standards being different from yours.
[18:54] [Tarragon] Trans is also possibly the least visible. In a lot of cases.
[18:55] [Darkhawk] sometimes at least yes.
[18:57] [Tarragon] New handicap for an RP char: playing someone who thinks they're very smart who is actually, in many ways, very stupid, but not in the drooling idiot stereotype way.
[18:58] [Darkhawk] again a very typical human trait ;)
[18:58] [Darkhawk] Like.. Trump
[18:58] [Tarragon] Many people do this unintentionally :P
[18:58] [Tarragon] He comes to close to the utter buffoon stereotype.
[18:58] [Darkhawk] But it's actually challenging thinking about how to be stupid like that. If you have to overthink it, it's challenging ;)
[18:59] [Darkhawk] Yeah, but he still thinks he has skills andhis opinion is the right one.
[18:59] [Tarragon] It's harder to play an actual genius when you're not.
[18:59] [Darkhawk] I'd have to think in every situation what the most stupid thing I could mean or say would bem whereas it'd come naturally to others ;)
[18:59] [Tarragon] People still try.
[19:00] [Darkhawk] Yeah, I've actually never played someone more stupid than average. I should remedy that at some point.
[19:00] [Darkhawk] But I'd probably go for a stupid but heart in the right place approach first.
[19:00] [Tarragon] But stupid in that special way? Not like just regularly dumber than other people.
[19:01] [Darkhawk] well, depends. I've played right-wingers ;) To have and hold those opinions, you have to be.. Ehr, imo...
[19:01] [Darkhawk] But yeah, they've had IQ at least.
[19:01] [Tarragon] Right, having IQ but thinking you have so much more than you do and then failing at logic while thinking you have all the common sense.
[19:02] [Darkhawk] Those are some of the coolest to play, because you get to go after power, strategy, manipulating, controlling, pursuing your interests.
[19:02] [Tarragon] That's the kind of stupidity that ruins elections.
[19:02] [Darkhawk] I think that'd be challenging to play. But interesting.
[19:02] [Darkhawk] Probably get better with practice
[19:03] [Tarragon] Just... look at some of the young-ish (under 40?) middle class reasonably well educated people around you
[19:03] [Tarragon] For a model.
[19:03] [Tarragon] Like actual middle class not the lower class can't-afford-shit that they're trying to sell as middle class.
[19:03] [Darkhawk] They're not neccessarily stupid, but have lots of confirmations bias and vested interests in the opinions they have. Which is understandable and to be fair, relatable ;)
[19:04] [Tarragon] I solidly counbt confirmation bias and thinking you're better educated than you are as stupidity.
[19:04] [Tarragon] -b
[19:05] [Tarragon] And if I do that too, and used to do it much more, that doesn't excuse anything (or me).
[19:06] [Darkhawk] Yeah sure, but then it's about there being many forms of stupidity, and settling for one or a few.
[19:06] [Tarragon] Like... studying economics and then thinking you know more about biology than... biologists or people in the medical field.
[19:06] [Darkhawk] Trump has many. Actually it'd be fun to model a character on him. But also challenging, because I can't talk like him, can't have that Kindergarden vocabulary. And I also have trouble understanding what he says.
[19:07] [Tarragon] It's like a RL eric cartman, boring fast.
[19:07] [Tarragon] though he's actually more eloquent.
[19:07] [Tarragon] cartman I mean
[19:07] [Darkhawk] Perhaps, but the deeper 'meaning' of RP for me, is to identify with the char you're playing, get inside him/her, make it click and suddenly understand him/her, make it natural. That gives some insight, and then it stops being boring. Ideally.
[19:08] [Darkhawk] Hehe yes, obviously
[19:08] [Tarragon] Sure, but playing someone who is always shouting over everyone makes it boring fast for everyone else.
[19:08] [Darkhawk] eloquent is not a word to use with Trump. Not unless you also throw in 'anti-thesis'
[19:08] [Darkhawk] I mostly read what Trump has stated, I find it hard watching...
[19:08] [Tarragon] He shouts in writing just as well.
[19:09] [Darkhawk] That's manageable for me ;)
[19:11] [Tarragon] Or read some 'autism parent' (not to be mistaken for autistic parents) websites and base some of the mold on that.
[19:11] [der_Tommi] I once got this dumb, toughie gay bro in this con one-shot game. I usually just made him slow to come to the conclusions others had already reached, and then declare that if it was a novel idea everyone should pay attention to.
[19:12] [der_Tommi] Was fun.
[19:13] [der_Tommi] Not sure how deep, though.
[19:13] [Darkhawk] yes.. yes you're sure ;)
[19:14] [Darkhawk] I don't like stuff where I have to step outside the char and do meta/strategic considerations like that. Of course you have to do that when you're not into the char, but at some point it needs to come natural for me, so I'm not thinking 'ok, my character can say the same thing a bit later and think it novel'.
[19:14] [Darkhawk] Otherwise it's not really RP'ing to me. But some characters are harder to get into than others.
[19:15] [Darkhawk] Maybe if you took a lot of sleeping pills or something before playing such a char...
[19:15] [Darkhawk] And alas, how elitist this all sounds ;)
[19:16] [der_Tommi] I don't think I was thinking it like that, calculatedly. It came pretty naturally, and at least I didn't need to think too hard during that session.
[19:16] [Darkhawk] interesting Tommi, interesting that it came naturally... ;)
[19:17] [der_Tommi] I mean, I intuitively saw that that's what this character would do.
[19:17] [Darkhawk] uh.. huh...
[19:17] [der_Tommi] But yes, it's a very high-level feat of meditation to be able to shut down your mind like that.
[19:18] [Tarragon] Or play that person where someone says or explains something, and they don't believe them because they are (gay, female, whatever) and then someone else says it, and they have no troubl;e accepting it.
[19:19] [Darkhawk] When you pick all these Tarra, you seem to forget you need to feel some sort of respect or understanding for that character. It almost sounds as if you just want them to embarrass themselves and show how wrong/stupid they are ;)
[19:20] [Tarragon] It'd just be nice to have people intentionally playing people flawed that way, instead of hte more obvious flaws they put in, and if they do stuff like this it's without even knowing it.
[19:21] [Tarragon] And it's only obvious and embarrassing when you point it out like this, when people do it without being an obvious Cartman about it people generally don't even notice apart maybe from feeling vaguely annoyed and not being able to put their finger on it.
[19:22] [Tarragon] It's of course easier to play flaws you have. Like being condescending and having a temper. :D
[19:22] [Tarragon] Talking too much, or too little.
[19:23] [Tarragon] Explaining things too often when they don't have to be or going into too much detail doing it.
[19:23] [Tarragon] Being fucking lazy...
[19:23] [Darkhawk] Hehe
[19:24] [Darkhawk] Not the biggest flaws. Well, the temper one perhaps.
[19:25] [Darkhawk] I very rarely Rp someone with a temper, but I should. Actually maybe combining that with right-winging might be good.
[19:25] [Tarragon] Can be troublesome in RP because people react way more overblown than they would in RL. Where they'd usually just snap back at you or leave or something.
[19:25] [Darkhawk] I'm good playing arrogant, condescending, intellectual, dismissive, cold though!
[19:26] [Darkhawk] True, you need to have skilled RP'ers and not someone treating it as a circus
[19:26] [Tarragon] When I RPed a temper, I'd end up with people wanting duels and shit.
[19:27] [Tarragon] Can't even be a nasty twat to people these days :D
[19:27] [Darkhawk] To be fair, especially in MMO's 'people' 'RP' ridiculously drama/emo/over-the-top/childish. So it's hard risking a real RP char to those hordes
[19:27] [Darkhawk] Yeah, what's the world coming to ;)
[19:28] [Tarragon] That's fun enough if you know what you're going into and have your own drama ready.
[19:29] [Darkhawk] sure, or if you play a very controlled person that cannot be really affected by the wrong sort of people
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[22:36] [Tarragon] Well, time to get some sleep. Night everyoone.
[22:36] [Tarragon] -o
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